• Uncategorized Comments Off on I am shocked and angered at your little stunt!

    Are we a blog that is here to help others to deal with problems related to MLM’s, or are we here to push a political agenda? Your comments about this “interesting article” reek of an excuse to bash the Tea Party and associate them with something negative. I can personally give you some very negative documented “parallels between” a particular anti-American president and Socialism.

    If you want something “interesting” to quote from, I can show you a book written by the founder of the largest family planning organization in the USA. In her book she praises Adolf Hitler’s ideas for selective breeding to produce a supreme race, and states that her worse fear is the unrestricted breeding of certain minorities, thus her main reason for her founding of her well known family planning organization.

    Hal, you are probably the most vocal member in the MLM survivors.

    Pretty much everything I have heard you say in the past years, whether I agreed with you or not, was at least well thought out and constructive to MLM survivors, but your “interesting article” comments about the Tea Party were NOT. I have a lot more things I’d like to say, but I would be doing just what I am complaining about, turning our MLM Survivors forum into a political debate forum. Nuf said.

  • Uncategorized Comments Off on FWIW

    I run a discussion list for ex members of Scientology’s hard core “inner members”. I banned the discussion of politics from the list completely. Not because I do not like a good political argument (or even a flame fest!) but because it is not what the list is for.
    Its a tricky line to walk – MLMs buy political protection from whomever is in power (as indeed , do cults) so naming the names of politicians who do provide cover for these parasites seems to be a good idea.
    But we need to be careful of something – the MLM s seem to promote a heavy dose of christianity – at least it seems to get used a lot by the Motivational crowd and organizations but is that a reason to lambaste Christianity or Christians? (I am an atheist so I can claim no axe to grind on this). Yes the Motivational people spout a doctrine of republicanism – but is that more of their manipulative thought control?
    See what I mean? I am a conservative in my views and I tend to get irked when people somehow equate the manipulation of the mlms with ANY political philosophy.

  • Uncategorized Comments Off on Actually Hal it does mean that comparisons as done in this article are meaningless

    For example it says that because Tea party members think they have better/more applicable answers than people they disagree with that this makes them the same as herbalife?
    If that is the case, and if this “comparison” is valid then any member of any ideological blog is the same as any other member of any other blog.
    Clearly this is flawed logic.
    So – for example – the comparison could have been between the Tea Party and the Sons of Liberty, or between the Tea party and John Brown’s abolitionists. Or between the Tea Party and MLK.
    None of those comparisons were used – so the author picked one to attempt to show the Tea Party in a bad light.
    So the intent of the article is clear – it is not a discussion or investigation into comparing organizations, it was just one more attempt to denigrate the Tea party and its members.
    I am surprised that you don’t appear to see that – after all this is a tactic used often by Amway and other MLMs to smear those who would oppose them.

  • Uncategorized Comments Off on The article says 3 things:

    1.Meekler is in the Tea Party . 2. Meekler is a MLM adherent and a scammer (themajority of the article is about what a scumbag he is). 3.The Tea Party is the same thing as anMLM

    If this guy Meekler is involved with TeaParty in any capacity he has a right as an American to do so. They do notdiscriminate.

    IfMeekler were to become a Roman Catholic (or any group) and start proclaiming the tenets of the Roman CatholicChurch would you say that Roman Catholics are like MLMs?

    What hecannot do without the consent of the other people in the Tea Party is sell hisscam and he is NOT selling his scam. From what I know about the Tea Party hewill be out the door if he even looks like he is going to try to sell it.

    The Tea Party is only a gathering oflike minded people who do not like what the current administration is doing.(primarily spending money it does not have) Many of them didn’t like what theprevious administration did . Beyond that they do not agree on anything.

    The onlything I can see that it has in common with MLM is that it has grown and isgrowing quickly.

    No money is required .No money ispromised . No products are sold or offered. It is an advocacy group only andthey want to advocate that people vote for or against certain issues.

    Thearticle tries to say that the language used in both groups is similar: thatMLMs sell hope (for financial change) and that the Tea Party sells “HOPE” (forpolitical change). It also says that MLMs offer false hope and the Tea Partyoffers false hope.

    I guess if that is true then the ObamaAdministration itself could be considered an MLM. It offered (sold) Hope andChange

  • Uncategorized Comments Off on Whoever wrote this and perhaps whoever posted it ….

    you (although I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt) did so because they want to make a political statement. Essentially they hate the Tea Party groups and essentially this entire thing is BS. The people who get sucked into mlms are not thinking clearly and lack a great deal of discernment. It is necessary as one navigates life for one to be ” as wise as a serpent and as gentle as a dove” In other words do not fall for the BS that is out there. This article is unmitigated BS and if you buy it you will buy anything.
    I have spent only a part of my time with tea party people. but I can tell you that the last thing they are is organized… much less organized in any sinister plot and led by secretive groups

    You Hal, should be ashamed of yourself for putting this out here.

  • Uncategorized Comments Off on I wanted to share about some experiences with

    a couple of valued colleagues that were recently drawn in, with different outcomes.
    One fellow put it out there that he was kind of endorsing Mona Vie. He has been battling illnesses for about a year that it would be mild to say are life-threatening, and when he was taken off of chemo because of complications, he said he hoped the Mona Vie would support his recovery and disease management. I asked him to please just read the Wikipedia article about Mona Vie — it has a pretty good criticism of the product, and compares it with much less expensive, readily-available, conventional juices that have more of the nutrients and none of the marketing burden. He read the article, and told me that he was glad that I brought it to his attention. He confirmed my fears that the distributors told him that the Mona Vie would do all sorts of miraculous things for him — they didn’t tell him outright it would cure him or replace the medical care, but he felt that they strongly suggested just that. A short time after trying the product he
    found himself out at marketing functions and getting messages that he would “GET FIRED UP!”. I think it’s disgusting how some of these mlmers will prey upon people with serious illness like that. Fortunately, this colleague was open to looking at information from other sources, continues with recommended medical care, and gets his nutrition from the organic section of the grocery store rather than from snake oil peddlers.

    Another colleague said she is trying ASEA to help her with respiratory, orthopedic, and other problems. Have you heard of this stuff? There isn’t as much press on ASEA yet, but what I read indicates that it is salt water. It is not as expensive as Mona Vie, but how much more than $1 should a bottle of salt water cost? I expressed my concerns to her, and she replied that her brother had done the research, talked to the doctor and atomic physicist, etc. I didn’t have an answer for all of the molecular physics and organic chemistry that was rattled off, but remember that if a product is really that advanced and effective, it would probably be all over the place in the supermarkets, drugstores, and media, would be making its developers and manufacturers truckloads of money the traditional way, and would not be marketed through direct distributors. So this friend is rather hypnotized. Again someone I care about that is suffering, and getting
    sucked in by greedy charlatans. I can’t blame her either for wanting this product to give her the relief the health care system hasn’t so far. On the positive side, we still have a friendly dialogue, and the seeds may be planted.

  • Uncategorized Comments Off on Your question really is redundant is it not?

    There has to be a catch unless the theory is that someone is being charitable and “selling” $100 notes for $85 . So its not a question of “IF” there is a catch , merely getting someone to keep explaining it to you until you spot it.

    Think of it this way – if someone came up to you with a $100 and offered to sell you it for $85 and told you that if you joined in the scheme you could make lots of money by selling $100 bills for $85 – what would you think? ElcLoans.com offer payday loans online and I think this is much more reliable solution.


    Why do you need to have a “catch” pointed out to you?

  • Uncategorized Comments Off on Simple Notice – If You’ve Tried to Reach Me

    This came up in a discussion with another group member, so I thought I should post this as a helpful hint. If you are trying to get in touch with me and you don’t hear back in 48 hours, try another email, with a different subject and ask if I got the email. I won’t consider it rude at all. I have a VERY aggressive spam filter (actually, I have two VERY aggressive spam filters) and it protects me, but the price is that sometimes a legitimate email gets caught and tossed away without me knowing it.

    If anyone tried to reach me in November, that was the exception. I was on my back for a good while due to an old injury and have only recently been able to be back at the computer for more than a short while. (The irony was I could not sit very long, so I could rumba and tango, but not sit at the computer — worse things have happened in life!)

    So if you’ve tried to reach me and I didn’t respond, I’m not ignoring you, I just didn’t see your email.

    I hope this hasn’t caused any issues or problems.

  • Uncategorized Comments Off on There is another email from Frank in the moderation queue

    and I’m handling this one because it addresses me directly. Just so people know I’m not hiding things, he sarcastically calls me a “class act” for my” bimbo-in-a-bag comment. He claims to be Margo’s ex.

    Notice he’s talked about using our comments in his new audio program or book and has asked people for permission to do so. Hence the real reason for this post.

    I would HEAVILY SUGGEST people AVOID this person as much as possible, at least with the facts now at the group’s disposal. If he wants to use any of our material, there’s a good chance it will be used as MLM motivational speak, to make non MLMer’s sound bitter.

    I’ve reminded him that each individual author retains copyright of their letters they right here and pointed out that any permission given to him can be revoked.

    I’ve also told him that if he wants to add to the discussion or can explain what he was doing in any of the situations Margo has explained in her email, I would consider letting that through. Of course, if he’s just going to call names, that won’t go through moderation, but if he can justify or explain his actions (which include non-payment of child-support, inability to hold a job or produce a steady income, leaving his ex-wife in debt, and not doing anything to help with his children’s college education), then I think that it might be worth it to hear his side of the story.

    Of course, the other factor is that all this is dependent on whether we can be reasonably sure he IS Margo’s ex and that he is not just making things up to get attention.

    However, in the post in the queue now (that’s been rejected), all he does is get sarcastic on me.

    Now, most of you have seen me called quite a few things. Some are true, some are not. I don’t mind being called names, but in this case, since he just addresses my one comment and doesn’t address all the points Margo made, I didn’t see any reason to let his post through. And I did repeat what he said about me, so it’s clear the reason for not letting that message through was not about me or my ego.

  • Uncategorized Comments Off on The problem is its a manufactured and forced addiction that many have no power to avoid or escape

    I liken it to a drug dealer that restrains and forces specific people to injections of drugs to addict them so they now have customers that will do anything to get what was forced on them to begin with.

    In the case of MLM’s they play on fears and weakness’s, using mind conditioning (brain washing)to restrain their victims to get them to work for and do their bidding. If someone were to break into our home and kidnapp her, shoot her up with drugs to imprison her and control her I would be out fighting tooth and nail to get her back. I see it as no difference. I see my girlfriend as a victim rather then an addict.

    The way I see it, is that I committed to loving her and stand by her and, so I will do what ever it takes to get her out, until I either succeed or no its no longer viable to do so. I don’t know where that point will be but, I have to hold out and try everything I can.

  • Uncategorized Comments Off on I can see the point about the credit card companies

    They are almost as evil as the MLMs, and the motivational organizations. It was a sign that my ex wasn’t thinking clearly, the way he was borrowing from credit cards and ignoring the mounting interest and late fees. In the past he had good financial judgment — he set up my retirement account when I was 25 and not thinking about it, and he opened the prepaid college plans when the boys were infants. Later I worried that he would plunder these accounts if he got desperate enough. I’m sure there were some messages from the upslimes that he would be entitled. He definitely acted more entitled and chauvinistic as the privileged male/head of the household/primary breadwinner when making his MLM decisions once the manipulative ones got ahold of him. He really is/was a good person, but definitely lost to me.

  • Uncategorized Comments Off on Thanks for the validation!

    I was very angry, for a long time, but now I mostly pity him and his new wife, as the wreckage of these derailed business endeavors of ex-dh seems to be capitulating as anticipated. I thought I might get some satisfaction, but it’s just sad, sad how clueless they are. The new wife seems very intelligent, but showing to have some serious, episodic medical and psychological problems, which might be the kind of partner he is attracting in his sickness.

    They don’t have to deal with the debt he was assigned, because he declared bankruptcy and had his responsibility for the debts relinquished by the courts. This does make me angry because bankruptcies like this it would seem to me pass the burden on to the public in one way or another. Others file bankruptcy for some very legitimate reasons (overwhelming medical bills, loss of income, disaster), but to me the ex never has to be accountable for his greed, selfishness, and poor choices. He doesn’t have debt, but he doesn’t have much else either.

    What do I have? My two boys. A good job, good credit, my integrity (I believe), the capacity for clarity, the support of my family and friends, and a lot more choices than he has. Therefore I have everything.

  • Uncategorized Comments Off on What my MLMing ex is up to

    We’ve been seeing a lot of posts lately about the effects of MLM on families and marriages. Here’s an update (and a bit of a recap) on some of our outcomes since I decided I was done letting MLM wreak its havoc in my and our children’s lives:

    May 2006: ex-dh was terminated from about his sixth “J-O-B” in three years due to low productivity. Other jobs he quit. He began talking about interviewing at the far end of the state or halfway across the country. I didn’t want to abandon my family here and connections, and move so he could take a job he would keep for six months.

    June 2006: For our son’s birthday he bought himself a new vehicle without telling me. The upslimes and consultants believe that someone with his potential for success should appear prosperous. He paid $21K for a $15K vehicle because he owed on the previous car. His judgment was not that bad in the past.

    July 2006: He took a job two hours away from the children. He was served with divorce papers.

    September 2006: He moved out. Until May we had two professional incomes, but he could not afford a security deposit or first month’s rent, and did not have enough available credit. He rented a luxury apartment, about as far away from the children on the other side of his employer’s town, but could not furnish it.

    December 2006: In mediation it was determined that I would retain the home with the $52K in bad debt attached to it (mostly due to MLM expenses). I also got primary custody of our two sons, then ages 5 and 2. This actually turned out to be advantageous for me, because I could have been ordered responsible for half of his credit card debt (many more tens of thousands), and to give up half of my retirement. I agreed to save for the children’s education if he did also. The children were to receive support commensurate with state guidelines. The children’s savings accounts were raided by the credit union because of ex-dh defaulting on credit card payments, and he has put away absolutely nothing for them since 2006.

    January 2007: our divorce was final.

    Spring/Summer 2007: he filed bankruptcy, and some of his creditors came looking for me.

    July 2007: He got a better-paying job eight hours away and thought it in the best interests of the children to move to the Atlanta area (we live in Central Florida).

    November 2007: He met a woman with an income about the same as mine, introduced her to my children, and moved her in.

    December 2007: He was laid off.

    March 2008: He and the new girlfriend moved to the other side of the state about two hours away from us.

    June 2008: He was about $7K behind on child support and requested a modification. He worked for about a month but quit because the job was commission-based (that’s funny, isn’t MLM also?). He’s been delivering newspapers since about that time, which isn’t a shameful thing, unless you’re trying to avoid income deduction for child support.

    July 2008: He was found in contempt of court for failure to pay child support. Aside from a small purge, I’ve still only been receiving about $100 a month for the boys, just enough to keep him from losing his license or going to jail.

    November 2008: He married his girlfriend, and continues to rely on her income.

    All the while he’s continued to do USANA, perhaps Herbalife, and some fitness thing. He wanted to be a personal trainer, and briefly worked at a fitness center, but quit because the job was commission based (funny, isn’t MLM commission-based also? lol…). I know the economy is bad, but surely he can do better for himself financially than delivering newspapers, but doesn’t want to admit failure and take a J-O-B? All he owns in the world is an electric piano, a computer, and a wristwatch. He is on Facebook and webpages talking about what a business success he is, and advising others to follow his plan.

    Here’s what I’ve been up to:

    Continued to work at my J-O-B that I’ve had for 16 years. In residential treatment (it’s a virtue, Hal). It’s basically supported me and the children for at least half of the time since ex-dh moved out, and probably at least half the time since about 2002 while I was only dimly aware of my ex’s MLM sickness.
    Retained my friends and connection to the temple, continued to care about things other than wealth. Listened to music in my car and not motivational/business-building CDs. Developed my interests further.
    in June 2006 stopped direct deposit to our joint account, opened my own checking, and borrowed from my healthy personal leave account to pay the mortgage and other bills that were over two months behind. When I looked at my mortgage payment history, he had paid it late for six months straight. Of course there were late payments to his five or six credit cards that he had going, but I didn’t worry about them.
    Withdrew the remainder of home equity funds available and placed them in a savings account. I agreed to take this loan with ex-dh in late 2005 to try to stop the financial hemorrhaging, as he said we would pay off the credit cards and start putting our finances back together. Instead, I found that he was spending the loan like it was real money, to finance MLM, and the debt I inherited was not even half of what he owed…
    Continued to pay prepaid college loans for the children. They are going to college, no matter what I have to do.
    Refinanced the home with the debt in July 2007 so that I could manage the payments.
    Repaired my credit, which fell to about 560 (thanks to ex’s late payments and defaults) in July 2007, and recovered to about 710 a year later when I needed to buy a car.
    Now my only debts are the house (a big one, but I suppose I’m in the same boat as most people now), and my car. I am far from wealthy, but financially stable, even though the household income is only about 40% of what it was before the children’s father got sucked into MLM, and I am supporting us almost completely by myself. It’s amazing how well you can manage on a non-profit salary when you aren’t supporting MLM. But I take pride in that, and know that I am better off. We have for the most part recovered. The children are happy, and doing better in school. I am hopeful for our futures, and am starting to feel content.

    These are just the observable, most objectives outcomes I can report. I think it will be an even longer email describing what MLM and the upslimes’ and evil “consultants'” messages did to our relationship, how it changed ex-dh’s behavior, and how he was so thoroughly brainwashed. I wish I had seen a lot of this sooner, or didn’t try to hang on as long as I did hoping that he would come to his senses, but the last two years have helped to validate that the soul of the man I married and loved was not coming back. Sometimes you have to give up and think for yourself and the children. I don’t hope to discourage people wanting to extricate their loved ones from MLM — perhaps my ex was more susceptible than most — he flirted with mail-order businesses and Amway in the past, and may have lost a substantial amount of our resources by buying stock options on margin (also knew better than to do that), but I hope to show that life goes on after surviving